Subject: Re: Getting Credit for Work Tue Sep 01 19:45:56 1998 >>if getting the contract means enough to you that you're willing to >>hand over the copyright as part of the deal, i'd say they're within >>their rights to pull your logo from the page. > >It's important to remember that unless you sign away a right, you own it. good point, Suz.. i was referring to a situation where Linda was willing to sign over whatever rights the client demanded, for an additional fee or not [1], but didn't state it clearly. frankly, that was wrong of me. the assignment of rights is very important, and shouldn't be handled casually. [1] - the jerk is being rude to a member of my tribe.. my first reaction would be to kick the price up so high he'd have to hock a testicle to afford it. OTOH, it's easy to be tough with somebody else's negotiations. hold out for what you can get, Linda, but if you decide the money makes a less-than-perfect deal worth taking, we'll be here with the sympathy when you need it. >>they have to put up with your logo.. they can't claim any rights of >>ownership if they refuse to take posession. > >Personally, I think this is a weak position. What if the client suddenly >decides that he'd rather keep your logo on his site than pay you that last >$5000 he owes you? More useful might be a password protection scheme as i wasn't thinking of the logo as the mechanism to guarantee payment, but again, on an N+1th reading, i can see that my wording was unclear. the methods you suggested are significantly more mature, and something as trivial as pulling a logo can't begin to compete. what i was shooting for was a situation where removing the logo is part of the ritual of closure for this specific project. Linda's post indicated that the client was gung-ho on that issue, so i took their motivation to get the logo off the pages as a given. it's not the kind of thing i'd suggest as a general policy, because like you say, Suz.. another client might not give a dang. to unpack a couple other basic principles i didn't bother to mention last time, i agree with the other people who've posted, saying that the general situation makes them uneasy. clients who aren't willing to flex at the beginning tend to become miserable, bitchy, back-street legalists at the end. in circumstances like that, it's essential to get everything in writing up front. but equally important are the rituals of delivery and acceptance, which provide closure at each step along the way. the specific actions of a ritual are unimportant, as long as they have the following qualities: - easy to identify - unlikely to happen by accident - both sides agree *beforehand* on what the ritual means signing a contract is probably the most common ritual there is. if you think about it, writing your name on a piece of paper is a lousy way to guarantee good behavior. it's vulnerable to forgery, lying, and almost any other form of dishonesty, but we literally shape our lives that way. the authority doesn't come from the act of signing, but from the fact that everyone knows, and agrees to support, the ritual. when you have to deal with difficult clients, the best thing you can do is make up some kind of ritual for absolutely every step in the process. everyone on this list has been around the block enough times to know what happens on a project: you do the initial design work, then the client fails to deliver content, or refuses to make a decision, or suddenly decides to take about twelve steps back and start again. if you have a good set of clearly-defined rituals at each step along the way, it gives you a trail of accountability. that comes in very handy when you get into the last few weeks, where everything is still only half-done, and the client starts trying to dump all the blame on you. as long as you've done your part for each step, and they've participated in the ritual where you handed responsibility back to them, you're in the clear. if there hasn't been a subsequent ritual where they handed things back to you, they have to admit their own fault, rather than pinning it on you. if it goes to the worst case, you have something which is admissible in court. in my experience, though, things don't escalate that far. the fact that the client *knows* you can stand up and document your deliveries, and their own failures, makes legal action the last thing they want to see happen. that becomes another bargaining chip on your side, as the deadline gets closer and tensions begin to rise. it's especially effective on bad clients, who are basically bullies. they attack without fear as long as they're stronger, but suck up like champs when they're weaker. it's also good to have a range of different rituals, all working at the same time. if you demand a signature for everything, it can put people off, and then they start buiding their own documenation trail. if you use some other type of action.. removing a logo in this case.. the ritual is still valid (and still admissible, if necessary), but doesn't trip their defenses until, frankly, it's too late.